I don’t see the contradiction. I do see that there is a fundamental divide between what you and I consider art. As I alluded to in my previous reply, art is the journey. That is my personal take after many years of engaging with many artistic pursuits. If you don’t like my opinion, based on my subjective experience as an artist… I don’t really know what else to say to you. As I keep saying, feel free to hold and exercise you own opinion, based on your own experience.
If that journey is multiple days of fucking with these tools, why does that not count? Why is this the only technology immune to human expression?
I don’t need the constant reminders of what an opinion is - but you might need a refresher on what arguments are. If you give a reason for an opinion, people will often assume that’s why you believe something, and address it in a way that may alter your conclusion.
I’m not sure why you’re so hell bent on changing my opinion on this subject. Could it be that you aren’t so sure of your own opinion, so you’re projecting that uncertainty outward? I don’t feel the need to convince you or anyone of anything. I have simply been sharing where I stand on the subject. I think I should be free to do so without the expectation that I engage wholeheartedly in someone’s desire for debate.
You seem to think opinions are decorative things, having no bearing on reality. Like the topic at hand doesn’t practically impact entire career paths for millions of people. As if the only reason to try to dissuade someone from dismissive absolute rhetoric is if I am somehow swayed by it, and secretly believe the opposite of all the words I’m saying.
Solipsistic time vampire. Why does anyone give a shit where you stand, if you don’t know what it means to stand by it?
I’m sorry, what? How am I a time vampire? This is an open forum. I should be free to share where I stand. Just as you are free to share your standpoint, and attempt to engage in debate. You may not always get what you want in this life, and that’s ok too. It might be that there simply isn’t much debate to be had. Your engagement with these “tools” is directly and actively harming those who provided the data that built them. That is a fact, not opinion. I’m not sure if you consider yourself an artist or a programmer or whatever, but let me ask you this: If you along with several other chatbot prompters were to line up your individual products, would a viewer be able to spot the difference? Would any difference there be specifically attributed to any individual chatbot prompter?
At what point were you engaged in debate? You act bewildered that someone tried to critically examine your assertions. I’ve been asking questions from your opinion. Do you not recognize your own stated beliefs?
That is a fact, not opinion.
Incorrect. Locally running ComfyUI or Ollama neither picks their pockets nor breaks their bones. When these cloud companies crash, local models aren’t going anywhere, and they won’t do psychic damage to someone whose DeviantArt posts were in the training data.
Would any difference there be specifically attributed to any individual chatbot prompter?
In one shot, probably not. After a week of fucking around to pursue a specific idea in each person’s head, almost certainly. Then again, you could have one group of people prompt a hundred images total, and a completely different group each pick their favorite ten, and that non-interactive selection would reveal individual aesthetic internality. Curation is not creation, but it requires identifying a work’s shortcomings, even if you won’t correct them yourself.
Would a demonstrable difference change your conclusion? Like, is this line of questioning relevant, or are we just saying words recreationally?
I find the way you view those whose data built the systems you use pretty interesting. The distaste for artists is palpable. “…won’t do psychic damage to someone who’s DeviantArt posts were in the training data.” How do you view art in general? Is there intrinsic value in the experience for which the piece represents, or is the value of a piece purely the numbers on the pricetag?
Look, I fundamentally do not agree with your thoughts on the matter. That will not change. I also have at no point forced you to respond, you have done that on your own.
You can’t go from ‘it does harm! fact!’ to an appeal from the nature of beauty.
Nor can you honestly claim ‘this is an open forum for debate’ and then make crystal fucking clear you’re not actually arguing, you’re just spouting words at someone. You came to me. I did not seek your opinion, I did not invite brainstorming, and I’m not keeping you here. But for some fucking reason every single response includes a pearl-clutching rejoinder like you can’t figure out why someone is talking back to you. All you did was offer concrete rationale and claims to fact which are supposedly relevant to the broad and important topic at hand! Why would anyone have something to say about that?
If addressing your alleged reasons cannot possibly change your mind, then they’re just lies. That’s pretense. That’s pulling out excuses that sound like arguments, but cannot be foundational to your conclusions, or else removing them would make that belief structure collapse.
If you don’t actually want to discuss this, consider shutting up.
I never said I was arguing, just sharing where I stand on an issue.
I came to you… What are you talking about? I replied with my thoughts.
“…you can’t figure out why someone is talking back to you.” I’m not sure where in this thread I responded in a way to make you feel that way, but if I was I am sorry. I will say that you have made it clear you don’t appreciate conversation with those who disagree with you.
This last part honestly makes no sense to me. I’m pretty sure I’m not lying, but I guess you might have information about that which I’m not privy to.
I feel I’ve been pretty respectful throughout this conversation. You seem to be having some difficulty respecting others with differing opinions… I’m sorry that’s so troubling. I hope you find peace.
I don’t see the contradiction. I do see that there is a fundamental divide between what you and I consider art. As I alluded to in my previous reply, art is the journey. That is my personal take after many years of engaging with many artistic pursuits. If you don’t like my opinion, based on my subjective experience as an artist… I don’t really know what else to say to you. As I keep saying, feel free to hold and exercise you own opinion, based on your own experience.
If that journey is multiple days of fucking with these tools, why does that not count? Why is this the only technology immune to human expression?
I don’t need the constant reminders of what an opinion is - but you might need a refresher on what arguments are. If you give a reason for an opinion, people will often assume that’s why you believe something, and address it in a way that may alter your conclusion.
I’m not sure why you’re so hell bent on changing my opinion on this subject. Could it be that you aren’t so sure of your own opinion, so you’re projecting that uncertainty outward? I don’t feel the need to convince you or anyone of anything. I have simply been sharing where I stand on the subject. I think I should be free to do so without the expectation that I engage wholeheartedly in someone’s desire for debate.
Then why are we talking?
You seem to think opinions are decorative things, having no bearing on reality. Like the topic at hand doesn’t practically impact entire career paths for millions of people. As if the only reason to try to dissuade someone from dismissive absolute rhetoric is if I am somehow swayed by it, and secretly believe the opposite of all the words I’m saying.
Solipsistic time vampire. Why does anyone give a shit where you stand, if you don’t know what it means to stand by it?
I’m sorry, what? How am I a time vampire? This is an open forum. I should be free to share where I stand. Just as you are free to share your standpoint, and attempt to engage in debate. You may not always get what you want in this life, and that’s ok too. It might be that there simply isn’t much debate to be had. Your engagement with these “tools” is directly and actively harming those who provided the data that built them. That is a fact, not opinion. I’m not sure if you consider yourself an artist or a programmer or whatever, but let me ask you this: If you along with several other chatbot prompters were to line up your individual products, would a viewer be able to spot the difference? Would any difference there be specifically attributed to any individual chatbot prompter?
At what point were you engaged in debate? You act bewildered that someone tried to critically examine your assertions. I’ve been asking questions from your opinion. Do you not recognize your own stated beliefs?
Incorrect. Locally running ComfyUI or Ollama neither picks their pockets nor breaks their bones. When these cloud companies crash, local models aren’t going anywhere, and they won’t do psychic damage to someone whose DeviantArt posts were in the training data.
In one shot, probably not. After a week of fucking around to pursue a specific idea in each person’s head, almost certainly. Then again, you could have one group of people prompt a hundred images total, and a completely different group each pick their favorite ten, and that non-interactive selection would reveal individual aesthetic internality. Curation is not creation, but it requires identifying a work’s shortcomings, even if you won’t correct them yourself.
Would a demonstrable difference change your conclusion? Like, is this line of questioning relevant, or are we just saying words recreationally?
Huh?
I find the way you view those whose data built the systems you use pretty interesting. The distaste for artists is palpable. “…won’t do psychic damage to someone who’s DeviantArt posts were in the training data.” How do you view art in general? Is there intrinsic value in the experience for which the piece represents, or is the value of a piece purely the numbers on the pricetag?
Look, I fundamentally do not agree with your thoughts on the matter. That will not change. I also have at no point forced you to respond, you have done that on your own.
You can’t go from ‘it does harm! fact!’ to an appeal from the nature of beauty.
Nor can you honestly claim ‘this is an open forum for debate’ and then make crystal fucking clear you’re not actually arguing, you’re just spouting words at someone. You came to me. I did not seek your opinion, I did not invite brainstorming, and I’m not keeping you here. But for some fucking reason every single response includes a pearl-clutching rejoinder like you can’t figure out why someone is talking back to you. All you did was offer concrete rationale and claims to fact which are supposedly relevant to the broad and important topic at hand! Why would anyone have something to say about that?
If addressing your alleged reasons cannot possibly change your mind, then they’re just lies. That’s pretense. That’s pulling out excuses that sound like arguments, but cannot be foundational to your conclusions, or else removing them would make that belief structure collapse.
If you don’t actually want to discuss this, consider shutting up.
I never said I was arguing, just sharing where I stand on an issue.
I came to you… What are you talking about? I replied with my thoughts.
“…you can’t figure out why someone is talking back to you.” I’m not sure where in this thread I responded in a way to make you feel that way, but if I was I am sorry. I will say that you have made it clear you don’t appreciate conversation with those who disagree with you.
This last part honestly makes no sense to me. I’m pretty sure I’m not lying, but I guess you might have information about that which I’m not privy to.
I feel I’ve been pretty respectful throughout this conversation. You seem to be having some difficulty respecting others with differing opinions… I’m sorry that’s so troubling. I hope you find peace.