Disagreeing as well as asking for sources because I’ve truly never encountered anything about people being anti-circumcision that’s felt anything beyond “that’s a messed up thing to do to a baby”.
Totally on board with the things you’ve said against mras, with the added note that they also make it harder for people to actually discuss real issues that do effect men in a way that isn’t immediately assumed to be an angry wounded machismo thing. Patriarchy hurts men too, and men have some social issues that it can be helpful for them to seek support on, and the work of shitty mra groups framing that as so closely associated with antifeminism or misogyny actively hurts men by creating an association that caring about or having male specific issues makes someone a misogynistic ass by default.
Reasonable people are feminists, and don’t get hung up on the origin of the word.
I purely mean I have literally never heard anyone blame feminism or any feminist group for circumcision. I think the closest I’ve heard is people arguing against individuals who’re saying female circumcision is worse, and therefore we shouldn’t dilute the conversation by bringing male circumcision up.
Oh, you just meant personally you never encountered it in real life. Yeah, people don’t start talking about male oppression in a coffee shop. They sound insane. I meant it’s more a “starting” point for men that get sucked into the right wing pipeline online. The MRA groups aren’t that influential themselves because they are usually just a small step into right wing politics. The average person looks into them and realizes what they are (totally inadequate in defining or solving the problem). But more often then not these men will move RIGHT from there. You’ll still see major right wingers like Nick Fuentes, Asmondgold, or Joe Rogan talk about MRA issues as something that only “the right” cares about.
I think we largely agree. I think I’m just talking about how right wing propaganda works. And you’re just being practical and saying it’s not really a controversial topic when brought up by itself in a vacuum. Which you’re right. It’s not.
In a way, a lot of the men that are pure MRA guys are noticing a problem that they see isn’t being addressed, are unwilling to accept that feminist are actually their best ally, but, also unwilling to accept the further right propaganda of the far right saying “women shouldn’t vote” etc. So you get this small group of men that exist as “true” MRA that have no hope of solving the problems they care about but at the same time serve as a door to further right politics.
Oh, I was incredulous because I’ve never even heard something like that online, where people will share some truly out there opinions.
We seem to otherwise agree on stuff.
Your last paragraph kinda highlights my bonus reason for disliking mras. They’ve made it nearly impossible to think of a space where you can discuss mens issues that isn’t at a baseline antifeminism.
Patriarchy hurts men as well as women. Addressing how it hurts men has the opportunity to help prevent future harm, like by helping people figure out a definition of manhood that isn’t everything wrong with modern masculinity, which can be hard if you have next to no examples to show you it’s even possible.
It’s not feminists as allies, it’s feminists talking about a different part of the conversation.
Mras are so toxic that it’s become legitimately difficult to convey “I’m concerned with how society messes up men” without people thinking you’re about to segue into some misogynistic awfulness.
All that to say, blaming feminists for circumcision is a type of delusion so far out there that I have trouble even conceiving how you would do that.
Disagreeing as well as asking for sources because I’ve truly never encountered anything about people being anti-circumcision that’s felt anything beyond “that’s a messed up thing to do to a baby”.
Totally on board with the things you’ve said against mras, with the added note that they also make it harder for people to actually discuss real issues that do effect men in a way that isn’t immediately assumed to be an angry wounded machismo thing. Patriarchy hurts men too, and men have some social issues that it can be helpful for them to seek support on, and the work of shitty mra groups framing that as so closely associated with antifeminism or misogyny actively hurts men by creating an association that caring about or having male specific issues makes someone a misogynistic ass by default.
Reasonable people are feminists, and don’t get hung up on the origin of the word.
I purely mean I have literally never heard anyone blame feminism or any feminist group for circumcision. I think the closest I’ve heard is people arguing against individuals who’re saying female circumcision is worse, and therefore we shouldn’t dilute the conversation by bringing male circumcision up.
Oh, you just meant personally you never encountered it in real life. Yeah, people don’t start talking about male oppression in a coffee shop. They sound insane. I meant it’s more a “starting” point for men that get sucked into the right wing pipeline online. The MRA groups aren’t that influential themselves because they are usually just a small step into right wing politics. The average person looks into them and realizes what they are (totally inadequate in defining or solving the problem). But more often then not these men will move RIGHT from there. You’ll still see major right wingers like Nick Fuentes, Asmondgold, or Joe Rogan talk about MRA issues as something that only “the right” cares about.
I think we largely agree. I think I’m just talking about how right wing propaganda works. And you’re just being practical and saying it’s not really a controversial topic when brought up by itself in a vacuum. Which you’re right. It’s not.
In a way, a lot of the men that are pure MRA guys are noticing a problem that they see isn’t being addressed, are unwilling to accept that feminist are actually their best ally, but, also unwilling to accept the further right propaganda of the far right saying “women shouldn’t vote” etc. So you get this small group of men that exist as “true” MRA that have no hope of solving the problems they care about but at the same time serve as a door to further right politics.
Oh, I was incredulous because I’ve never even heard something like that online, where people will share some truly out there opinions.
We seem to otherwise agree on stuff.
Your last paragraph kinda highlights my bonus reason for disliking mras. They’ve made it nearly impossible to think of a space where you can discuss mens issues that isn’t at a baseline antifeminism.
Patriarchy hurts men as well as women. Addressing how it hurts men has the opportunity to help prevent future harm, like by helping people figure out a definition of manhood that isn’t everything wrong with modern masculinity, which can be hard if you have next to no examples to show you it’s even possible.
It’s not feminists as allies, it’s feminists talking about a different part of the conversation.
Mras are so toxic that it’s become legitimately difficult to convey “I’m concerned with how society messes up men” without people thinking you’re about to segue into some misogynistic awfulness.
All that to say, blaming feminists for circumcision is a type of delusion so far out there that I have trouble even conceiving how you would do that.