Stop talking.
Either you’re being an arse or they are.
Stop talking.
Oh, so you’re stonewalling me?
“I need to step back from this conversation as i’m getting disregulated. Please allow me some time”
Is this therapy talk for commanding a brigade of soldiers to resist an enemy advance during the First Battle of Bull Run?
I have a sister in law like this. She’s really cool and we generally get along but God damn is she hard to deal with sometimes.
There was one instance where it was our niece’s birthday and we had made this shitty balloon arch for pictures. When it came to the end of the party and we needed to break it all down, I knew that a bunch of the balloons had like confetti in them. She was helping with the breakdown, and I had dealt with these before so I was like “watch out for the confetti balloons, try to cut them open near the know and let the air out slow, and do it over a garbage can incase it pops. They will shoot confetti everywhere if they pop and it’s a pain in the ass to clean up” and she just turned at me with tho most vitriol “ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO MANSPLAIN TO ME HOW TO POP BALLOONS?!” and I was like “Okay jeez, was just trying to help”
Not two minute later I see her with a pin just popping the balloons off of the arch. Fucking confetti everywhere. I turned to my wife, who saw the exchange and I was like “yeah I’m not helping clean that up”
This is the same woman who screams about body shaming etc, and when she expressed interest in one of my friends who is Japanese said “He’s hot but it’s too bad he probably has a small dick”. Like… That’s racist AND body shaming.
We agree on a lot of things socially and politically, and like I said generally we get along, but she also complains very loudly about how she can’t keep relationships sustained and it’s like… Yo, all you do is vocally complain about how men are the source of all problems. But you also want to be with one?
Like, look… I’m all in support of feminism, but it should be about rising women up, not chopping men down. I didn’t choose to be born with a penis. Why am I automatically an enemy? I’m an ally.
Fuck.
First part: mansplaing and helping are often hard to tell apart. Especially if you get mansplained all the time. In this case I am sure you are in the right.
Second part: we didn’t choose to have a penis but we are part of the patriarchy problem. We were socialized with privileges and those let us behave in a way that keeps said patriarchy working. Feminism for me is about figuring out what helps to level the playing field and what doesn’t. I am wrong a lot.
Being an ally is sometimes confused with “I am not doing anything wrong” like not being sexist. That is not enough anymore. We need to speak up when somebody else uses behaves in a sexist way. We need to actively change things because we are the patriarchy and by being part of that are helping to keep the status quo just by existing as a male in the society and passively enjoying the privileges that come with that.
The difference between mansplaining and helping is all about the level of condescension attached to your “help”. If you are genuinely trying to relay information that you feel may help someone…you’re good. If you’re talking down to someone that you feel would already have this information, if only they had been born with a penis…you’re being a misogynistic asshole.
Then why call it man splaining? Misogynsplaining is better word than that sexist shit you call it
I agree.
Out of interest and looking at the downvotes: did I not communicate well? Is my position precieved as pro patriarchy?
Not as far as I could tell. I was just adding my two cents to your two cents. It wasn’t meant as criticism, just embellishment. I have no idea why you’re getting any downvotes. The internet is a weird place sometimes.
Thanks for your response
First part: mansplaing and helping are often hard to tell apart. Especially if you get mansplained all the time. In this case I am sure you are in the right.
One of the problems with “Hello, I’m from the internet and I have a story where I was definitely right and the other person was the asshole” is that you’re getting a very one-sided narrative without any historical context.
Just-So rants are a dime a dozen around here. “Why am I the victim, just because I’m a guy?” has - in my experience - been a big fucking red-flag.
Sadly true …
It took me about 40 years to finally realise how much privilege has been bestowed upon me. It’s a very strange thing to view personal historical events through this lens. I don’t regret anything, the opposite in fact, it’s a source personal development.
I feel like everyone here needs a reminder that love bombing is something that happens AFTER mistreatment to make the victim calm down and become compliant.
This isn’t just being overly affectionate, it’s a technique used to manipulate behavior and keep a victim loyal.
I thought it was a thing used at the beginning to get people to join cults.
lovebombing used to describe cult behavior where a large group would shower praise and validation on a prospective member as a recruitment tactic. it’s no surprise that there’s confusion about what it means when it’s used to describe a wide variety of behaviors that are superficially connected.
Though it can be used during the initial parts of a relationship to make it progress at a very fast rate. Imo it’s best to hit the brakes even if the other person isn’t abusive. And hit the brakes as in don’t rush to move in with them, get married, or have a kid, as I think ending a relationship because it’s moving too fast is just as likely to end a good thing as avoid abuse.
IMO detecting abusive people is best done by seeing how they react when challenged, especially by someone they might consider a lesser.
With someone coming on too strong too fast you need to keep your eyes open and be aware of your boundaries. It may be someone who’s awesome and sincere who’s just on a different pace than you, it may be an intentional abuser being machiavellian, but it’s also got a pretty good chance of being someone unstable and sincere and oh fucking boy will that cause problems if you don’t have and maintain boundaries.
Also, despite the name, the relationship does NOT need to be romantic for this to apply. Literally anyone in your life can be a abuser with tactics like this. Usually, sadly, it’s someone with some authority or ability to screw up your life. For example, like a workplace manager or a family member.
It’s best to explain why what’s your doing is not mansplaining. That always works.
The real answer is to leave. I don’t think I’ve ever had a meaningful or productive conversation where any of these were used.
Though I can see stonewalling being used in earnest.
Stonewalling is probably the best only one on that list where a response would actually make anything better.
It’s best to explain why what’s your doing is not mansplaining. That always works.
If somebody accuses you of mansplaining, there is nothing you can do. that makes this so toxic as an argument. It’s basically saying “Whatever you are saying or want to say is worthless because of your gender”. I know that mansplaining is in theory a specific kind of disrespectful explaining, but in too many cases it’s used to deflect valid arguments. If someone is acting like that, the only way is to not interact further.
Yeah that top part was a joke.
It would be like asking a woman if it’s her time of the month or if she’s PMSing. It’s aggressively devalidating and at that point there’s nothing to say.
yep. the terms in the op are all thought terminating rhetoric and simply attacks.
Honestly if someone was using all these terms, I’d stop talking to them. I don’t have time to be an avatar for your underlying mental issues to attack.
Put in headphones, listen to a comedy laugh and ignore. Probably better turn on the body cam on too… And create space from this person.
And stop trying to get everyone to like you.You don’t even like everyone.
And stop trying to get everyone to like you.You don’t even like everyone.
The first part has been my mantra for years now, luckily, but I like how the second part gives an obvious, concise reason and I’ll add that to my stash of advice for other people. Thank you :)
Ty homie.
Ive been contemplating that and what Bruce Lee says, “we are all one family under the sun. Its just that people are born different.”
That said, if you see a baby in a burning building, tons of people may yell at you not to go into the building. Maybe they dont see the baby, maybe they are idiots…but regardless, if you’re doing something meaningful… ignoring how others feels about you is easier.
Your thoughts r welcome!
That said, if you see a baby in a burning building, tons of people may yell at you not to go into the building.
I get your analogy, but allow me to go off on this tangent: I’m an actual volunteer firefighter and my experience is, that people in stressful, one-off-situations they were not trained for are absolute idiots and require clear directions in easy, short wording and segmentation of large todos into small, directly assigned tasks which you need to have them repeat to you, verbatim.
They will feel treated like imbeciles because that’s what they are in that moment and there is no space, time or energy to work around that until whatever crisis is dealt with.
Having been the responsible person in these kinds of situations actually broke my desire to be liked by everyone and instead set targets and see to it that we reach them with with as good of an outcome as possible.
Ask “Why do you feel that’s what I’m doing?” then reflect on the answer and how your behaviour was perceived this way. Finally, if after reflection you come to the conclusion that indeed you acted poorly, apologise and try to behave differently in the future.
And if it doesn’t?
“Because youre doing it”
Now you’ve determined that your partner is a poor communicator, because “because” is never a useful answer. Now your question is whether to try to work with your partner to improve communication, or give up on an adult whose communication skills haven’t advanced beyond those of a child in first grade.
Because is literally the answer to any question starting with “why”. Even if you leave “because” unsaid it’s implied in any response to “why?”
Because is not an answer. Because can be the first word in an answer, but if nothing is provided afterwards than the answer is essentially, “I believe it to be so, and I choose to provide no evidence whatsoever to support that belief.” And how do you move forward from that? In fact, your specific statement I responded to was
“Because youre doing it”
What kind of response can be made to that? There is no example, merely an assertion. There is nothing specific, merely a general response. What kind of resolution besides complete capitulation or parting ways can be made based on this statement? In fact, if I was given that response in a conversation and was feeling combative, I would be inclined to respond with, “Who’s stonewalling now?” And, given how I put because in quotes, implying a complete statement, I could argue your response to my previous comment was gaslighting.
Well ask a dumb question you get a dumb answer. If someone’s being a dick I’m gonna feel like they’re being a dick because they’re being a dick. What other answer you expect? “Because im on my period and being irrational?”
If someone is behaving poorly, there are two broad reasons. They know and are choosing to (for some value of choosing) and they don’t know and are doing it anyway. If someone is being a dick and doesn’t realize why they’re being a dick, pointing it out can cause them to realize they’re being a dick, at which point they can choose to stop (again, for some value of choosing) or they can not, which puts them in category of knowing and choosing to. All that assumes that they accept your assessment of the situation is correct.
Now, as for your specific alternative? Having been in this type of situation, I would go with something along the lines of, “Aww, honey that sucks. Let’s stop arguing about how your feelings about the state of the kitchen aren’t my problem. Now, do you want cuddles before or after I tidy the kitchen, and where does chocolate and/or ice cream fit into this process?” Now, granted, my wife has learned to accept that my stupid, overly-specific ass is just that and is willing to say things like that on occasion since subtle is only a theoretical concept around here.
If someone is being a dick and doesn’t realize why they’re being a dick
I think you’re confusing the words “how” and “why”. Why they’re being a dick is a question for a therapist, unresolved childhood trauma, insecurities etc.
How they’re being a dick is the question you seem to be referring to. They don’t realize that what they’re doing is wrong or hurtful, because they don’t see how their actions are affecting their partner.
“How does that make you feel” is another good question. I might be unaware that my actions are upsetting in the first place.
But saying “why do you feel that way” creates separation between yourself and your actions and places the burden of introspection on the partner, not yourself. My partner gets upset when i make a mess, because I made a mess. Their feelings do not require introspection. My actions are the issue in that case. If im confused i would ask “How do my actions affect you?”. I might not realize how big a problem the mess is for them, that’s where the education is needed, not on why they have feelings about my mess.
You clearly need to improve your communication skills
/s
Trying to start a terapy randomly feeling like the one of the wort advice personally. In theory it is best thing to argue about something but in practice probably it will devolve to something else.
- If you are not know what are you doing probably wont accomplish anything.
- For this to work both side need to be adult in their emotion and thinking but this is a very rare situation.
- There is a chance if other side thinking you are being arrogant, manipulative or blaming other side.
In theory it is a basic and clever method but if you are dont know what are you doing it will be like landing a plane with written insturactions.
tell her to calm down, she is being hysterical
Respond with a strong assertive wave of the hand and a firm “silence women”
“Men are speaking” emphasised with a pat on the bottom.
Probably that time of the month
And then suggest the Edwardian era cure for hysterical women: orgasm.
“…this is a Wendy’s.”
360 you stay exactly where you were
That’s the joke
I use all these techniques to get out of paying for prostitutes.
(Just kidding I can’t afford prostitutes)
Why pay if you gave her pleasure too
Guys I’m not sure if this person is just kidding
Reflect upon how you are acting. Empathize with the other person’s POV. Then discuss rationally from a point of mutual benefit.
It depends if the accusations come in good or bad faith.
Lol, no.
Name checks out
Hey, they don’t have any for me either.
The funny thing is when people say “you’re gaslighting me”, but actually you’re the one being gaslit.
Really the problem with things like this is just when they’re used in bad faith to gain rhetorical advantage. It’s fine to say something to the effect of:
“I believe you’re gaslighting me. Here’s what I remember happening, and here’s some supporting evidence. What you’re saying is that it didn’t happen that way. If your intention is not to intentionally try to mislead me about how things occurred, can you explain?”
But just saying “You’re gaslighting me” when really what’s happened is that the way things actually happened is inconvenient to their argument - that’s the issue. It all comes down to their motivation
Real gaslighters LOVE the opportunity to further twist facts, or maybe its compulsion. Its better to either disengage entirely or focus on one or two key points their bullshit cannot change
Therapyspeak is a weaponized toolkit for typically BPD/sociopaths/narcissists to manipulate the situation into them always being right, and the only person whose thoughts and feelings and intentions matter.
It is extremely unforunate that this is the case… but it is the case.
Here’s a maybe relatable shit test:
Are you having conversations with a person that resemble diatribes/debates from SexPestiny or Thor/PirateSoftware?
They conceed a point, and then immediately minimize it, flip to another rheotrical/emotional attack angle where they are the victim or you are the perpetrator, never actually allowing anything approaching a consensus as to the actual facts of the matter, all stated together?
Yep, that’s a sociopathic narcissist that put a bunch of skill points into therapyspeak/debate rhetoric.
They’re grandiose, and slippery; they’ll do anything to avoid someone else being able to nail down the actual factual foundations of their argument or perspective.
They do this because they must maintain narrative control/framing, everything is a battle of image and reputation, not the actual things that those originate from… thats both their strategy and just part of how their brains work.
They’re essentially incapable of realizing or fully processing that they’ve made a substantial error, and they’re also basically just not capable of separating ‘how they felt about something’ from ‘something’; at best this is enormously difficult for them, as they have very poor ability to regulate their emotions.
My ex-boss was like this. I felt so much better after he was gone, that is how I realized what a massive piece of shit he really was. My job and life were suddenly much easier, my mental health got much better, and I could think a bit clearer.
We’ve unfortunately built a society, in the US at least, that literally rewards and promotes sociopathy with money.
These people lie and tell you we live in a meritocracy, which itself is gaslighting.
Sociopaths ‘overperform’ in most kinds of careers, because they’re so manipulative.
Ok, so a lot of us agree on these basic facts, that there is this things wrong with the world, and we need a community that is an anti-venom to it.
Also, hi! You are kind of my favorite Lemmy person for some reason.
I feel like a lot of people on lemmy, a lot of reddit refugees… well basically they seem like 10 year younger versions of me, or something similar.
Thus… well fuck, psychoanalyzing myself a bit: I’m basically trying to be the dad or I guess just any kind of actual postitive mentor I wish I’d had, when I say things like this.
‘Its dangerous to go alone, read this!’
But yeah, laughter can help, and is a good part of any kind of discussion of the insane bullshit in this world… it doesn’t have to be just always jokes all the time, as s coping mechanism… it can be sanity-affirming for a blunt autist such as myself to just wholly explain the nonsense.
That being said: I’m not infallible. Ideally, don’t believe a thing I say, verify it.
Welp, you’ve nailed why I find it so ironic/hillarious when I’m told, at length and in excessive/invented detail, that I haven’t internalized/accepted my own failures enough.
Mind you, it almost never involves (even meta-physical)injury or inconvenience to anyone else, so there’s a lot of lip-flapping from people who can explain everything they have a problem with except for how what’s being complained-about is any of their business or problem.
My new life motto, upon hitting roughly 30:
Suffer no fools.
Be humble, but show no mercy to a hypocrite.
I’ve been abused by enough narcissists that yeah, I’ve got some rough edges to me, but frankly, I’m fine with that; a whole lot of people just fucking suck, and its a reasonably effective autorepellant for people who are too full of themselves to take a joke or criticism.
Honestly, I’m the opposite. Fools are the only company I’m fit for, but “smart” fools if I can find them, if that makes sense. I try to avoid feeling like the “smart” one, although that avoidance hasn’t required any effort for me among my friends for literal decades by this point.
You have to disengage once you know they’re actually doing it. Same with any manipulative behavior. But if you’re really not sure, I’ve had luck pressing them on why what they’ve said doesn’t make logical sense. If they can’t support it, I can dismiss it and disengage.
I’ve never really understood gaslighting.
Yes I know the original definition.
Yes I know the phrase is overused to describe behaviour it really doesn’t apply to.
I just cant imagine someone actually planning to manipulate someone in this way.
Yeah, I feel like a lot of people think of gaslighting as if it were intentional, but when I have encountered gaslighting, it has usually come from people who have a different view of events and are unwilling to accept that their viewpoint isn’t the absolute truth of the situation.
They will argue from the viewpoint of “the way I remember things is the way things happened”.
Then when you say that they are gaslighting you, they will say that they are not.
In their mind, they’re just telling the truth of events as they remember them, no malice intended.
My partner’s mother gaslights a lot. Think about scenario: She does something wrong, she backs off from situation for a few days to allow memories to wane a bit, then grabs the weakest link and starts bending the truth to paint herself in a bit better light at worst, and at best, shift whole fault on another person. She focuses on small, easily misremembered parts of story, and if you call her bullshit, she will accuse you of either not remembering or twisting it against her.
And she did that to my partner for their whole childhood and now my partner fights depression and lack of feeling of self worth. Also reacts to “I remember it differently” with aggression, which bites me in the ass but at least shields her from her mother.
I grew up with another gaslighter, my granny, who reframed and twisted everything to be my mothers fault and if she tried to defend then it was her remembering wrong, “not seeing such simple stuff” or being against granny. She did so with malice and ruined my mothers mental health. Same with her (granny’s) husband, who literally hanged himself.
Both cases were narcissistic but I can see someone using it out of other reasons.
Gaslighting includes the intention to mislead, leading to another person doubting their own reality. It’s a real thing some people do. When you’re experiencing it, you’re forced into cognitive dissonance as the reality you experience doesn’t line up with what another person claims.
That’s what gives nuance to the concept. Not all lies are gaslighting. Misremembering isn’t gaslighting. It requires a denial of reality that leads to another person second-guessing their own experiences. Gaslighting rarely occurs as a one-off event, it’s part of a recurring campaign that slowly changes how a victim perceives their own reality.
It’s okay to have difficulty imagining it. In fact I’d say you’ve been fortunate not to be exposed to it. Just be aware of it in case you ever find yourself in a relationship where it applies.
So my father did it, and I don’t think it was intentional, the big thing was that his perspective was to be treated as objective fact in discussions in which he was a part. You could say something like “I’m cold” and he’d respond with “it’s not cold” in a frustrated tone. The long and short of it in how it fucked me up is that I struggle to trust my own subjective reality and feel the need to get permission to feel things. That can be a real problem when it comes time to form and maintain boundaries for example.
Interesting.
That particular example is often a subject of discussion in our house.
The preface is, im absolutely aware that an individuals experience is what matters, rather than my perspective. For example, if a 10 year old child says they’re very worried about a truck they left at the park, its not helpful or relevant that my own stresses and concerns are more impactful - like I lost my job and cant pay the mortgage, what matters is that the child is distressed.
That said, my partner and I often bicker about whether “it’s cold”.
We have twins, who are toddlers. Shes from the “fully dressed in warm clothes at all times” school of parenting, while my approach is… less prescriptive.
Obviously if a child told me they’re cold i wouldnt simply tell them that its not cold, but give them some warmer clothes.
Another point of contention in our house is the heater. We live in a temperate climate and the cost of heating is a significant component of the household budget.
My partner tends to run the heater more often than I would, but often times shes wearing a thin nightgown. Not surprisingly, the accepted approach in most households is to put on more clothes if you’re feeling cold, but of course you can turn on the heater if you’re still cold.
Im really just trying to figure out whether I am in fact a gasslighting asshole, given your example 😆
I suppose a disagreement around use of a heater is not at all the same as telling someone whether “its cold”.
The lovebombing accusation is what gets me. Sorry for being lonely and easily getting infatuated on the rare occasion I get to date someone 😭
Edit: For clarification, I am just saying that “lovebombing” doesn’t necessarily have to be an intentional manipulation tactic. I am not saying it’s not a reason for concern
I man no disrespect but you gotta reign it in. I totally get where you’re coming from but getting lovebombed is a red flag for good reason.
You alluded to one reason why in your comment…if the infatuation isn’t mutual, it feels like the person is just excited to be in a relationship. They’re in love with being in love, not with me.
And unless you’re a narcissist, it just feels weird to put on a pedestal. Getting fawned over 24/7 is too much. People just want a partner that is a normal person most of the time.
It also has the connotation of codependence. And with that, it’s likely this person is going to have a mental breakdown if we break up in a year.
Lovebombing usually means baggage. It’s understandable that people don’t want to start a relationship with someone carrying a ton of baggage.
I mean, thank you for your advice, but I’ve been dating for quite a while now so I already learned I have to tone it down. It just feels frustrating having to pretend I’m less interested than I actually am, when I’m usually a person that hates being disingenuous
But the reasons to be put off by lovebombing are justified. You’re a stranger juggling knives and frustrated that they’re backing away lol
I mean they keep acknowledging that it kinda just seems you’re telling them that they have no choice but to pretend they’re someone different than who they are
Yes, I am well aware. I just know that lovebombing can also be seen, like in this greentext, as a deliberate manipulation tactic (and often probably is). My original comment was just meant to show the other side, that it isn’t always a manipulation attempt. And I’m absolutely not saying they are in the wrong for being weary of it.
I am childfree, and it’s very hard in my country to find women that also never want children, so I get overly excited when I find one that is willing to go on a date with me. I have learned to tone it down
Yeah I associate it with uncontrolled BPD and it fucking terrifies me at this point because of the experiences that caused that association. Being put on a pedestal sucks, your successes become expected and your failures become catastrophic. But also you can feel trapped for fear of hurting someone who you do like who’s in a bad place. And from there enforcing boundaries can start to feel like hurting them.
With my wife we still make points to express that we’d be ok and manage if the other left. Our finances are built with that in mind even. Knowing I can leave makes me always aware of how I don’t want to, and it makes us safe and secure in the fact that we know the other doesn’t want to.
