I already showed it, there was a time where the Red Army was fighting both the White and Black Armies. I already said there was no codified alliance, no formal ties, but the constant back and forth between Makhnovschina and the Soviets led them in shaky alliances, temporary conflict, back to a shaky alliance, before ultimately resulting in a final conflict where the Soviets drove out Makhno’s forces. Within this complex web was the ever-present (until the end) White Army.
You can call it goalpost shifting if you like, I can own up to misleading (though unintentional) wording on my part. I did not mean to indicate that there was an actual, codified, formal alliance between Makhno and Wrangel, etc. Hopefully that’s enough to satisfy you. My opinion on Makhno is rather negative in general, even without a codified alliance with the Whites. Policies like accepting all currency, abolishing all local laws, drawing rent for train use, all of these dramatically hurt local economy in an already chaotic time.
No, you absolutely did not. You tried to pass off some of Petliura’s wranglings with Poland as some kind of “alliance” between Petliura (who wasn’t even a part of the White forces) and Makhno and between Makhno and the Whites in general against the Bolsheviks.
It’s typical tankie thumbsucking and little else.
I did not mean to indicate that there was an actual, codified, formal alliance between Makhno and Wrangel, etc.
No, you tried to indicate that there was some kind of informal co-operation between Makhno and the Whites… and you have thoroughly failed to prove that as well.
My opinion on Makhno is rather negative in general,
There’s no need to tell me that… feeling threatened by any leftist that doesn’t fall on their knees to worship your holy party apparatus and the even holier political elites in control of it is exactly what we expect from you lot.
I did not try to pass off anything as an “alliance,” I already stated that there was no such codified alliance. I even accepted that my wording was unintentionally misleading, which is a mistake on my part. My issues with Makhno are not because I feel “threatened” by the Makhnovists, who are a relic of history at this point (like the soviets as well). My issues with Makhno are as I already stated, incredibly poor policy and an over-reliance on the Red Army for supplies, while simultaneously flip-flopping between working with the Red Army and working against them.
The fact that you deliberately left those criticisms of Makhno off, and instead inserted the strawman argument about some holy worship of political figures, is intensely dishonest. I’ve ignored your provocations as well, I don’t intend on getting into a big debate on the merits of Marxism vs. Anarchism here, as I know this is predominantly an anarchist space. That’s why I’m more here to combat those spreading social democrat apologia.
I am a Marxist, so of course I would rather the Marxists win the Russian Civil War than the anarchists. I don’t think that’s particularly surprising. None of that reasoning has to do with thinking political parties, or those within them, are “holy,” and such accusations are weak dismissals of the actual reasons why Marxists support the creation of disciplined, proletarian political parties.
as I know this is predominantly an anarchist space.
Oh… well, in that case, I have news that you might enjoy hearing. If you look over there on the sidebar, you might notice that three out of the five mods here are tankies - which makes this a de facto marxist-leninist space. That’s right, tankie… this (supposedly) anarchist space has been successfully hijacked by your ilk. So feel free to agitate for the quasi-religious technocratic cultism you try to pass off as political theory.
Sooooo… I’ll just go ahead and write this…
who are a relic of history at this point
…off as the opportunistic pretensions that it is, shall I? I can hardly criticise Makhno for not appreciating the danger posed by the cynical and self-serving realpolitik of the Bolsheviks when anarchists to this day are still failing to thwart the cynical and self-serving realpolitik of the Bolsheviks’ ideological successors to this very day.
I already admitted to unintentionally misleading verbiage. I can own up to my own mistakes. All you’ve done is continue to double-down on bad-faith smearing of points I have made to you, and deliberately dismiss clear points I have clairified for you.
As for this space being “predominantly ML,” no, it isn’t. Dbzer0 is overwhelmingly anarchist. The fact that this comm has some Marxist mods does not mean these mods can act willy-nilly banning anarchism on a predominantly anarchist space.
To be clear… which “mistake” did you actually own up to?
Attempting to smear an anarchist revolutionary and an anarchist revolutionary movement using thumbsucked tankie propaganda… or merely getting caught attempting to smear an anarchist revolutionary and an anarchist revolutionary movement using thumbsucked tankie propaganda?
There is a difference, you know.
As for this space being “predominantly ML,”
I did not say this space is “predominantly ML” - I said this space is…
a de facto marxist-leninist space.
…which is perfectly true irregardless of the fact that the majority of anarchists who use it still labors under the false impression that it is an anarchist space.
I owned up to saying the way I worded my initial comments gave the impression that the Makhnovisits formed an actual alliance with the Whites. This was wrong. What was true is that the Makhnovists did attack the Red Army in manners that gave the Whites increased leverage, and moreover I detailed some of Makhno’s policies that I severely disagreed with and which played a part in why Makhnovschina failed.
As for this space being “de-facto Marxist-Leninist,” again, that isn’t true. This space is de-facto generally left, with the only real hard line being against social democrats. If this were actually an ML space, it would look very different, with far more support for Marxism and more removals of anarchist content, which doesn’t happen here.
What is your goal, here? To alienate people from your viewpoint? You’ve been bad-faith regarding my criticism of Makhno’s wartime economic policies and regarding Marxism-Leninism, anyone viewing can see that. Are you just in it for the love of arguing?
So it’s the latter, eh? You know… considering that you’re making up for your “mistake” by…
What was true is that the Makhnovists did attack the Red Army in manners that gave the Whites increased leverage,
…peddling more tankie thumbsuck propaganda. The war between the Makhnovists and the Bolsheviks was instigated by the Bolsheviks and only the Bolsheviks - the Cheka was already attempting to “liquidate” anarchists on trumped-up charges in 1918 - before any official alliance between Makhno and the Bolsheviks, before Makhno even became a well-known guerrilla leader.
You are free to test your alt-facts against the historical record if you so wish. I’m not going anywhere… that is, until your friends over there in the mod squad decides otherwise.
As for this space being “de-facto Marxist-Leninist,” again, that isn’t true.
What’s the matter? Aren’t you proud of your fellow technocratic “leftists” infiltrating an anarchist space this easily?
Again… where is your proof, tankie?
I already showed it, there was a time where the Red Army was fighting both the White and Black Armies. I already said there was no codified alliance, no formal ties, but the constant back and forth between Makhnovschina and the Soviets led them in shaky alliances, temporary conflict, back to a shaky alliance, before ultimately resulting in a final conflict where the Soviets drove out Makhno’s forces. Within this complex web was the ever-present (until the end) White Army.
You can call it goalpost shifting if you like, I can own up to misleading (though unintentional) wording on my part. I did not mean to indicate that there was an actual, codified, formal alliance between Makhno and Wrangel, etc. Hopefully that’s enough to satisfy you. My opinion on Makhno is rather negative in general, even without a codified alliance with the Whites. Policies like accepting all currency, abolishing all local laws, drawing rent for train use, all of these dramatically hurt local economy in an already chaotic time.
No, you absolutely did not. You tried to pass off some of Petliura’s wranglings with Poland as some kind of “alliance” between Petliura (who wasn’t even a part of the White forces) and Makhno and between Makhno and the Whites in general against the Bolsheviks.
It’s typical tankie thumbsucking and little else.
No, you tried to indicate that there was some kind of informal co-operation between Makhno and the Whites… and you have thoroughly failed to prove that as well.
There’s no need to tell me that… feeling threatened by any leftist that doesn’t fall on their knees to worship your holy party apparatus and the even holier political elites in control of it is exactly what we expect from you lot.
Just assume we already know, okay?
I did not try to pass off anything as an “alliance,” I already stated that there was no such codified alliance. I even accepted that my wording was unintentionally misleading, which is a mistake on my part. My issues with Makhno are not because I feel “threatened” by the Makhnovists, who are a relic of history at this point (like the soviets as well). My issues with Makhno are as I already stated, incredibly poor policy and an over-reliance on the Red Army for supplies, while simultaneously flip-flopping between working with the Red Army and working against them.
The fact that you deliberately left those criticisms of Makhno off, and instead inserted the strawman argument about some holy worship of political figures, is intensely dishonest. I’ve ignored your provocations as well, I don’t intend on getting into a big debate on the merits of Marxism vs. Anarchism here, as I know this is predominantly an anarchist space. That’s why I’m more here to combat those spreading social democrat apologia.
I am a Marxist, so of course I would rather the Marxists win the Russian Civil War than the anarchists. I don’t think that’s particularly surprising. None of that reasoning has to do with thinking political parties, or those within them, are “holy,” and such accusations are weak dismissals of the actual reasons why Marxists support the creation of disciplined, proletarian political parties.
Do you, once again, need reminding of the very words you typed and entered into this conversation?
Yeah… I wonder what could possibly have given anyone that idea, huh?
It’s a complete mystery, I tell you.
Oh… well, in that case, I have news that you might enjoy hearing. If you look over there on the sidebar, you might notice that three out of the five mods here are tankies - which makes this a de facto marxist-leninist space. That’s right, tankie… this (supposedly) anarchist space has been successfully hijacked by your ilk. So feel free to agitate for the quasi-religious technocratic cultism you try to pass off as political theory.
Sooooo… I’ll just go ahead and write this…
…off as the opportunistic pretensions that it is, shall I? I can hardly criticise Makhno for not appreciating the danger posed by the cynical and self-serving realpolitik of the Bolsheviks when anarchists to this day are still failing to thwart the cynical and self-serving realpolitik of the Bolsheviks’ ideological successors to this very day.
I already admitted to unintentionally misleading verbiage. I can own up to my own mistakes. All you’ve done is continue to double-down on bad-faith smearing of points I have made to you, and deliberately dismiss clear points I have clairified for you.
As for this space being “predominantly ML,” no, it isn’t. Dbzer0 is overwhelmingly anarchist. The fact that this comm has some Marxist mods does not mean these mods can act willy-nilly banning anarchism on a predominantly anarchist space.
To be clear… which “mistake” did you actually own up to?
Attempting to smear an anarchist revolutionary and an anarchist revolutionary movement using thumbsucked tankie propaganda… or merely getting caught attempting to smear an anarchist revolutionary and an anarchist revolutionary movement using thumbsucked tankie propaganda?
There is a difference, you know.
I did not say this space is “predominantly ML” - I said this space is…
…which is perfectly true irregardless of the fact that the majority of anarchists who use it still labors under the false impression that it is an anarchist space.
I owned up to saying the way I worded my initial comments gave the impression that the Makhnovisits formed an actual alliance with the Whites. This was wrong. What was true is that the Makhnovists did attack the Red Army in manners that gave the Whites increased leverage, and moreover I detailed some of Makhno’s policies that I severely disagreed with and which played a part in why Makhnovschina failed.
As for this space being “de-facto Marxist-Leninist,” again, that isn’t true. This space is de-facto generally left, with the only real hard line being against social democrats. If this were actually an ML space, it would look very different, with far more support for Marxism and more removals of anarchist content, which doesn’t happen here.
What is your goal, here? To alienate people from your viewpoint? You’ve been bad-faith regarding my criticism of Makhno’s wartime economic policies and regarding Marxism-Leninism, anyone viewing can see that. Are you just in it for the love of arguing?
So it’s the latter, eh? You know… considering that you’re making up for your “mistake” by…
…peddling more tankie thumbsuck propaganda. The war between the Makhnovists and the Bolsheviks was instigated by the Bolsheviks and only the Bolsheviks - the Cheka was already attempting to “liquidate” anarchists on trumped-up charges in 1918 - before any official alliance between Makhno and the Bolsheviks, before Makhno even became a well-known guerrilla leader.
You are free to test your alt-facts against the historical record if you so wish. I’m not going anywhere… that is, until your friends over there in the mod squad decides otherwise.
What’s the matter? Aren’t you proud of your fellow technocratic “leftists” infiltrating an anarchist space this easily?
Alienate who? You?
Don’t make me laugh, tankie.