I hope this post fits the content and format of this community, if not I’m sorry.
I’m just incredibly shocked by the fact that an admin of the instance lemmy.dbzer0.com is openly supporting Hamas.
Here’s a link to the comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/61235665/23634712
I’m just curious -
Starting with the clear and obvious provision that Israel has stolen Palestinian land, and has been killing Palestinians for over half a century -
What is the “right” way for Palestinians to resist Israel? How should they fight back? Please, paint a picture for me in a way that shows how they can effectively stop Israel from killing more people, and stealing ever more land, until the Palestinians have been completely wiped out.
Consider, while you’re at it, that the US has been arming Israel for decades, and has been using it’s own military force to prevent other countries in the region from holding Israel to account. Sure, Iran could do something, except that the US has sold Israel the arms and technology to stop Iranian retaliation, and has also had Iran under embargo for so long that Iran is a disaster. (Not saying that the ayatollah is good, but maybe if the US hadn’t been propping up the shah, we wouldn’t have a religious nutter in charge.)
don’t rape, don’t carry out terrorism on innocent civilians
The right way was using the internet and global attention, which Palestine was doing, raising awareness of how they are suffering and gaining sympathy for it. They should’ve adopted more Western ideals, or maybe liberalism, encourage foreigners to come and stay. The West Bank and Gaza near Rafah were also doing decently well in terms of growth, labelling itself as a trendy tourist destination.
Unfortunately, Hamas decided that raping women and killing innocent civilians was a better method of resistance, even going so far as to film themselves carrying out the massacre and taking hostages – Which incurred the Israeli military and ended up with Gaza being turned to rubble. Sure, people are much more aware of Palestine now, but only the most radical of “progressives” think Israel can be defeated and that Palestine can do no wrong. These people are vocal minorities and hold no power.
The whole relationship between Israel and the US isn’t as buddy-buddy as people think it is. Israel previously attacked US forces and regularly threatens US personnel. No clue what goes on behind the scenes, but clearly Israel has something major on the US, or the US sees Israel as a base for Middle-East operations and considers the chaos that comes with it as a necessary sacrifice. Or maybe it’s both, or maybe it’s neither.
Well Hamas is a resistance group…
So is the Taliban and the KKK – Resistance doesn’t automatically equate to good or righteous
There is a distinction between Palestinian civilians and Hamas
There’s an obsession with ‘If this side is bad, the other side must be good’ nowadays that has become kind of crazy.
My point is that good and bad mean nothing to the dead and the starving, the average Palestinian doesn’t care that Hamas did bad things because there is a military occupation. Morality is for the privileged who don’t have to worry about their next meal. They deserve to have their material conditions improved until they can worry about morality.
Hamas would behead you for being queer :)
The posted comment never represents one side as “good”. It correctly identifies one side as resisting imperialism and colonialism, while acknowledging its lack of perfection.
There is no excusing rape and murder of civilians. You can’t handwave such atrocities as imperfection
You’re posting hasbara again, and what’s more is it’s “every accusation is a confession” shit with a growing mountain of evidence that Israel military forces like the IDF and IOF use sexual violence to terrorize Palestinian civilians as well as incoming aid workers trying to help starving children.
Please stop re-perpetuating this harmful and wrong misinformation.
Do you have any substantial argument or do you always call common knowledge “Hasbara” if it doesn’t suit your narrative?
I don’t support Israel or IDF, they can go suck a bag of dicks lol
But surely you can acknowledge that the rape and murder of civilians isn’t resistance?
why is it so hard for yanks to understand that both things can be bad
I am not endorsing Hamas as the legitimate leadership of Palestine. But I am saying that there is no credible evidence of rape and murder of civilians “as resistance.” You are perpetuating a harmful zionist talking point uncritically and it does the work for who you claim not to support for them. The world is filled with enough injustice to speak truth into the world about how genocide and the starving of children is wrong without doing what you’re doing here.
Hamas raped women during the 7th of October and sexually assaulted hostages. There was also the whole massacre thing during the 7th of October where the terrorists filmed themselves shooting elderly in their homes.
These guys have no argument except calling everything Hasbara, it’s such a shit show.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_October_7_attacks
“Imperfect resistance” ahhh, the classic terrorist supporter dog-whistle.
Much like MAGAs “novel legal theory”
Your argument is circular and inane.
Try engaging substantively.
circular and inane
I genuinely don’t think you know what either of those words mean if you think they apply to what I said.
You are describing terrorists by using normatively loaded language to make them sound like just little guys trying their best and making little mistakes. It’s disgusting.
Israel is a terrorist state that calls as terrorists those who challenge its ambitions of occupation, apartheid, and genocide.
Being vilified by Israel is not one and the same as being fundamentally wicked.
Israel is a terrorist state
Correct. And Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Hamas is labeled terrorist because it was assigned the label by Israel.
Hamas is terrorist only as much as one terrorist entity is credible to decide exactly which groups or factions are terrorist.
More generally, terrorist simply is a label states assign to their non-state enemies.
By the same standards, the Continental Army would be terrorist, as would be essentially every belligerent that has engaged in anti-colonial struggle.
Regardless, it should be concrete facts, not abstract labels, that are used to support arguments and conclusions.
Imagine both of this can be true!!1
Campism. Tankies love it
Anarchists are not tankies.
Campism is support, usually largely uncritical, for imperialist powers opposed to the US, in spite of such supporters identifying as leftists, who oppose all imperialism. Critical support for a tiny, oppressed resistance movement fighting apartheid and genocide is not campism.
Are you defending Hamas?
Are you even trying to form an original thought?
Hey now, Instance rule “be respectful,” buddy – As per your report
Are you defending Hamas or are in support of Hamas? Should be a pretty easy answer, yeah?
I sympathize generally with the posted comment.
Hamas is currently the only credible resistance against the genocidal apartheid terrorist entity of Israel.
Whether your mind is capable of parsing the nuance is beyond my control.
You endorse the rape and the murder of civilians?
Hamas is currently the only credible resistance
I’m sick and tired of seeing this shit. What fucking credibility does Hamas have? They’ve been in power for 20 years and what have they achieved? Their only acts of “resistance” is terrorist attacks against civilians, that’s it. They quite literally haven’t done a single thing to resist Israel whatsoever.
This entire debacle is their doing. They spent a long time planning the Oct 7th attacks, broke the status quo, declared a holy war, and now tens of thousands of Gazans are dead because of it. Those terrorist attacks that led to this current situation is their crown achievement. The result? Israel bombed the entire strip into the ground, the IDF marched right in unopposed, they started massacring civilians, and now they control everything. Where’s the opposition? Where’s the resistance? Hamas has resisted shit since their inception.
Now how does the same admin feel about Bandera, Azov, the Russian Volunteer Corps, and the Prigozhin mutiny?
Simple they’re paid guns, this isn’t the gotcha moment you thought it was.
I’m not shocked. Dbzer0 has a severe antisemitism problem. I’ve been considering making a megathread about the widespread antisemitism, but that’s more characteristic of Lemmy as a whole than a bunch of tankies.
Bad Hasbara.
Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism.
yeah you can talk as much shit about israel as you want, don’t care. but being supportive of hamas is inherently antisemitic as hamas’s goal is the total genocide of jews and a global intifada.
You are parroting debunked Hasbara talking points, while completely disregarding the merits of the posted comment.
Yours is precisely the narrow and simplistic, and in your case quite apparently deliberately ignorant, understanding of politics that the posted comment rightfully admonishes.
Oh, I must’ve missed the Lemmy instance dbzer0 is antisemitic hasbara talking point in hasbara school.
I’ll await your reply on Hamas before I take you seriously
Word salad.
Yes, salad for you. Go on a diet, eat the words.
That’s so true, unfortunately.
par for the course with extremists. It’s really curious how extremists end up being identical with their hatred and bigotry, horse-shoe theory and all that.
shitlibs
But then in their other comment:
I cant speak for anyone else but on a personal level I don’t tend to agree that calling people “tankies” and “red fash” is productive when referring to other leftists
OK, for all intents and purposes, it’s a tankie.
Its a simple distinction, I respect all leftists of all types. Liberals however are not leftists, if you support capitalism you are not a leftist (this includes socdems and mixed economy demsocs)
Supporting dictators is antithetical to leftism. Tankies are not leftist by definition.
Tankie bar. If it squawks like a duck
Oh goddamn it. I just wanted an instance that didn’t go down all the time.
Feel free to ignore this nonsense, admins like myself are people with our own opinions.
Oh hey! A dbzer0 admin. You guys banned me, so I’m banning you. shoo!
That’s extremely petty.
Satisfying though!
but nah, for real dude, I’m done with trying to cater for these extremist nutters. They hate liberalism so much that I’m not going to give them any, no equality, no fairness, nothing. When they admit they actually want some liberalism, then they can get unbanned.
SJW is decent enough, but you can always go with the classic world
He’s basically using an utterly irrational argument to defend an already 100% confirmed terrorist group!
DB0 is a highly suspect instance.
Well yeah it’s a tankie instance
No, they’re not. The instance is heavily anarchist and explicitly against Tankie shit. That doesn’t prevent them from endorsing problematic perspectives though.
Why would anarchists not support anti-colonial resistance?
Uhm, because it’s Islamic fundamentalism so basically right-wing?
The colonizers are not seeking to save Palestine from Islamic fundamentalism, but Hamas is fighting the colonizers to save Palestine.
The ideology is less relevant than the facts of life and death. Consider rereading the comment you posted for further clarity. “Morality means nothing to the dead.”
The ideology is relevant because it determines what happens if Hamas “saved Palestine”. They will constitute an Islamic state just like Iran and oppress it’s people.
If Palestine is freed from the colonizers, then it will have boundless options for its own governance.
No conclusion is foregone respecting such affairs.
If the colonizers are not resisted, then Palestinians simply will be dead.
It should seem clear that you are following the worse path.
That’s very campist. Doesn’t that mean anarchists would’ve supported the Irgun and Lehi? Jewish terrorists who attacked arab colonisers or settlers and later went on to create the Likud party?
Because those groups, much like Hamas, say that they’re a resistance against colonisation.
I defined campism in another comment. Your understanding of the term is inaccurate.
Again, you are falling victim to all-or-nothing thinking. It is not honest or reasonable.
They cosy up together at a campfire, dude. You heard of a nazi bar? If a bar doesn’t throw out a nazi, it becomes a nazi bar, and that’s exactly what’s happened to dbzer0. Circlejerking about how great authoritianism is and refusing to challenge tankies or take a stance against them is not anarchism.
They’re tankies and regularly cater towards tankies, such as Davels (Lemmy.ml admin), Cowbee and Diva, all self-confessed tankies.
They also regularly engage in ableism against me and others. They’re bigots and trolls, no wonder they federate with Hexbear.
Ouf, I had no idea. Thanks for the screenshots. I only “met” unruffled and kittenzrulz.
Yeah, db0 is fully tankie
Go to their leftymeme community, there is a lot of regressive tankie content.
Glorification of the CCP (claiming they are not authoritarian), glorification of DPRK (!!!), tons of “Death to America” type content, whitewashing of russia and much more…
These is pretty standard stuff for online “communists” based in the West.
Lefty Memes follows the principle of “leftist unity”.
I strongly oppose the principle, and especially disagree that it benefits anarchism, but it should be clear still that your conflation, of everyone as belonging to the same monolithic group, is narrow and ignorant.
I actually didn’t say anything about monolithic groups or leftists unity (to be honest, I couldn’t care less about this).
I did say that DB0 was suspect and they enable and promote tankie demagoguery (among many other things, glorification of the brutal DPRK regime).
You imply the existence of a monolithic group by your continued careless use of “they” and “their”.
Unity doesn’t mean you should be allowing extremism and bigotry.
You have already demonstrated elsewhere in the comments that your sense of bigotry is distorted, as through the twisted rhetoric of Zionism.
Regardless, my objection is to the assumption that everyone associated with DB0 agrees with all off the content, as would seem to be based on a mindset of “us versus them”.
Yes, Zionism is a very convenient dogwhistle
The latest chapter in the Chicago Dyke March controversy unfolded late last week after the group walked back its use of the term “Zio,” a pejorative brought into prominence by former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke and often deployed by white supremacists.
I’ve dealt with neo-nazis and their extremism before and they too use zionism as a means of obscuring their views. For someone who larps so much about nuance, you should know that dogwhistles exist, and it’s the contents of the post that determine whether or not something is extremist and bigoted, or in this case, antisemitic.
You should find some of those posts and share in this comm
Lol
Apparently if the USSR killed you, you were a Nazi. 100% Nazis the USSR never killed anybody that wasn’t a Nazi/s
Especially the millions of people who definitely were not Nazis like those dastardly ukrainians and Afghans and Georgians and those capitalists etc
lmao that’s a good post. you should share that one
Be my guest
I think I will do that one of these days, I honestly have only been two comms on DB0, one unrelated to politics and the other one is the mod abuse one where I got perma-banned for challenging DB0’s pet poster (believe it or not they didn’t perma-ban me for pointing out the regressiveness and lack of humanity of the tankies).
Anyone who uses the term “shitlibs” shouldn’t ever be taken seriously about anything.
I don’t condemn Hamas for fighting Israel but I also don’t support Hamas the Right-Wing organization created and funded by Israeli intelligence for the express purpose of weakening the PLO and preventing Palestinian unity. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if orders to launch the Oct 7 attackers came straight from Netanyahu. Some of the biggest protests to ever rock Israel occurred in 2023 from January till Oct 7 and Netanyahu would probably be in prison right now if not for the Hamas attack allowing his trial to be repeatedly delayed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests
Gazans perpetrating a surprise attack on Israel is, despite the irony, unsurprising.
Further, Netanyahu has benefited from it personally and politically.
Netanyahu arranging or ordering the attacks, however, would require a conspiracy, for which there is absolutely not one shred of evidence. The likelihood is vanishingly small.
I’m sorry but stating that Netanyahu ordered October 7th sounds more like a conspiracy than anything.
Good thing they said they wouldn’t be surprised if that occurred, and NOT that they believed that, huh?
